Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

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NormHart
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Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby NormHart » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:10 pm

Have you guys seen this?

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthre ... circa-1887

About 150 miles of the C.P.R. Mountain Subdivision set in 1887. :D

Wood burners!!! :D

I did a hasty repaint of the Genoa to run on the route and am looking at figuring out more possibilities. Ben's F1 for instance.

Finally, so far as I know the only "realistic" large scale standard gauge route set in pre-1900 North America. (at least until Curtis releases his V&T route)

Question for the group, how far apart should water tanks and cord-wood fuel points be? I seem to remember Curtis telling me that the range of a wood burning locomotive was only about 20 miles.

Trainboi
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Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby Trainboi » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:45 am

It's a good route, though I couldn't help but immediately replacing the track with a procedural attached-ballast version. I believe I used the Swedish track, which is one of the best I've found so far.
As far as fueling points, every town wouldn't be a bad idea for water! XD Otherwise, though, you could try placing it based off running experience, i. e. start on one end and build a fuel point at every point where you run out.
Alternatively, you could look for photos from each town and see if you can find a water tank and/or coal/wood shed in the shots.

NormHart
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:22 am
Location: Calistoga, California

Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby NormHart » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:57 pm

As Cayden explains on his website the Canadian Pacific Railway was very nearly broke as they attempted to complete this route. They simply could not afford the man power nor the time it would have required to ballast the route. I believe one of the posters on the thread at the N3V forum suggested a procedural unballasted track replacement. I remember the large discussions that went on amongst model railroaders about points and switches back in my youth and won't discuss the value of such things.

There is certainly much variation in the fuel consumption within the range of wood burning locomotives available in trainz I'm not sure how accurate any one of them would be as a measuring device.

I suspect there were guidelines for such things and I'm hoping someone will turn something up.

Trainboi
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Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby Trainboi » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:44 pm

There is certainly much variation in the fuel consumption within the range of wood burning locomotives available in trainz I'm not sure how accurate any one of them would be as a measuring device.

I suspect there were guidelines for such things and I'm hoping someone will turn something up.
Guidelines, if any exist, would vary by road, place, traffic and locomotive...Honestly, an in-game test is as good as any, if only because it's practical for the tools available.

Additionally, while there were many places the CP could not afford ballast, a few more achievable appearances could be found along the CP, such as the final construction points in 1884/5:
Image
Image
Image
And another, this one most probably around 1890:
Image
It may not be proto along the whole line in 1887, but unballasted track has a roughness that is impossible to achieve with Trainz. Therefore, it's a lot better to work with a rough ballast and save 80% of the still-formidable work required along the right of way.

I don't really have the technical information required to help you with fuel and water points, but I can say this much - Cayden's route is a brilliant start that needs a lot of tweaking and extra content to run properly. Honestly, I would like to run it through with as much as I can - another species or two of trees, something not too different but not identical; close-by flora and other ground detail, yard details etc. - and then start working on suitable stock. It will be a while before I can really start work on this as a side project, but this route is an opportunity that should not be passed up!

NormHart
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:22 am
Location: Calistoga, California

Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby NormHart » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:10 am

In this post http://www.pacificng.com/forum/viewtopi ... 1013#p3653 over at PacificNG.org Andrew drew my attention to this collection of albums http://www.kag.bc.ca/exhibitions/allabo ... lbum1.html

and reading in albums led to another unexpected connection to the V&T.

CPRw Roster

#1 Yale 2-6-0 V&T Storey - Union Iron Works SF
#2 Emory 0-4-0T (SF sea wall) (Vulcan SF? Union?)
#3 New Westminster 2-6-0 V&T Humboldt- Baldwin
#4 Savona 2-6-0 V&T Carson - Baldwin
#5 Lytton 2-6-0 V&T Nevada - Baldwin
#6 Nicola 4-4-0 New - Baldwin
#7 Kamloops 4-4-0 New - Baldwin
#8 Shuswap 4-4-0 New - Baldwin
#9 Columbia 4-4-0 New - Baldwin

Four of the C.P.R.'s first five locomotives came from the V&T in 1881-83. All were sold on in 1887 and one remained in service until 1926.

Whether they still had V&T's original paint job or not I can't guess.

Further reading in the albums has led to this

Regulation Station Building http://www.kag.bc.ca/exhibitions/allaboard/74924.html

Water Tank http://www.kag.bc.ca/exhibitions/allaboard/74918.html

The first says that Station buildings were built every 10 miles and the second says that water tanks were built at every station.

Specifically they refer to the section between Yale and Savona's but one can construe this to apply to the entire rail line. Note that Station and Section houses seem to be the same thing possibly.

This would seem, if true, to answer my question about the frequency of water and fuel stations.

(BTW note the ties and lack of ballast in these photos. The picture of the Savona is a 1884 ballast train. Under steam shovels there are pictures of flatcars being loaded.)
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Last edited by NormHart on Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:59 am, edited 4 times in total.

NormHart
Posts: 273
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Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby NormHart » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:27 am

Yale, I am guessing that the second picture shows the Yale after being repainted, it is undated. The first picture was taken about the same time as the other locomotives, not long after they were bought.
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Trainboi
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Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby Trainboi » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:14 pm

Looking at this, there's a certain setup that would really make an impact for this route.
We shouldn't necessarily use a "ballast" or "no ballast" setup. Ballasted is inaccurate for obvious reasons and "no ballast" looks too smooth. 99.9% of our no ballast tracks are designed for yards et cetera.
Instead, we need an unballasted track, basically what you see here. A rough grade (because unballasted track is never flat, but making it bumpy can't work with just the default ground) underneath a hand-laid light line.
I probably won't work on this but it's the ideal.

I've seen a few of those photos of Yale, they're quite good.

Pencil
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Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby Pencil » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:45 am

So something like a rough roadbed with ties sitting on top?
My guess is that when the V&T shipped the locos to Onderdonk, they were all painted like the Yale above. Which is interesting, as I don't think the Storey originally came with paint like that.

Trainboi
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Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby Trainboi » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:53 pm

So something like a rough roadbed with ties sitting on top?
My guess is that when the V&T shipped the locos to Onderdonk, they were all painted like the Yale above. Which is interesting, as I don't think the Storey originally came with paint like that.
Yes, that's it exactly.
And no, Storey wouldn't have, or at least I shouldn't think so, being a Union Iron Works product. Probably it got painted just before being shipped, and most of the later V&T engines had that style, so the shops could replicate it fairly easily. Just speculation, of course, but it would make sense.

Pencil
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Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby Pencil » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:47 pm

There are notes that the locos were repainted before being shipped, though what that repainting means is open to interpretation. Based on the photo of the Yale, though, I suspect it was a full paint job rather than just slapping the new road name on the side of the tender :)

NormHart
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Location: Calistoga, California

Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby NormHart » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:15 pm

I'll point out that there is no date on the second photo of the Yale. On the other hand it appears that none of these locomotives were actually purchased by CPR, they were purchased by the contractor and CPR declined to purchase them. Cayden sent me this link. http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadi ... 6_2002.pdf and pointed out the second article. It is amazing to think that one of V&T's moguls, apparently the Carson, ended up running until 1926 for the Canadian National Railroad.

NormHart
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:22 am
Location: Calistoga, California

Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby NormHart » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:32 pm

BTW, Cayden hasn't said anything but I should point out that this is his route. Speculating about changing it is fine but...

On the tracks, if you look closely at the five photos I posted you can learn a great deal about how they laid the track on a graded bed with half round ties at wide intervals. Then they went back and filled in with more regular ties and possibly replaced the half round ties. Finally they worked ballast into the laid tracks. Amazing what you can find in five photographs.

Pencil
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Re: Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub circa 1887

Postby Pencil » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:21 pm

As an aside, it looks like the 'Onderdonk's Way' gallery is now gone; a casualty of a website upgrade. It's a shame; it had been there for 20 years (though they did change domains once in that time...) Looks like you found it just in time, Norm!

Curtis


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